Battle for Middle Earth

Hi everyone!


To me: I am Isengard- and Gondorplayer since 1.00. I actually don't play CW's, but I think I'll start when the new patch is out. I was bored by the lame gamestyle in most games, esp. Isen vs. Gondor (was a long time my favorite matchup), but I watched and learned from the replays. I was ranked on QM-Ladder on 56, not that bad imo, there are enough good players above the top 300

I'd like to discuss relating on the changes made to Gondor and Isengard. (Be aware, this will be long time to read

I just read the changes for Gondor/Isengard again, let's compare some things:

Here is a small guide, what I'll write:

1.) Obvious changes, I sum up what is important for Isen vs. Gondor in my opinion
2.) Gameplay-changes, as far as I suggest them to be
3.) Suggestions & bases of new strats, involving new ideas

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1.) Obvious changes:
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Let me sum up several important changes for this matchup, I will comment them afterwards:

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Gondor:
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-> Knights have less health, deal crushdmg, more expensive horseshields and more vulnerable to fire

Well, it makes no more sense to do a horseshield-rush, and knights can't melee pikes anymore! They are similar to the rohirrim of Rohan, but weaker. Since HS-rush won't work anymore we don't need to pump pikes like stupid, just to guard our settlements and main base. Furthermore we'll probably need only few (1-2) pikes guarding our pit. Same with settlements, 1 Pike will be enough, hopefully. We'll need that CP's for our army on the field.

->Soldier cost now 120, upgrade equip cost 600 from 800 (360 with full discounts)

This will give us a hard time now, we'll probably see starting barracks and soldiers used vs. us.
Probably this won't be too hard cause we have stronger wargs, and stronger towers.

-> Boromir now starts at rank 3, +60% damage leadership at rank 4, Boromir attack now swings quicker and has knockback damage, able to throw back non hero targets, Boromir cost increased (1600 from 1400)

Well, I'd guess you can imagine Boromir like a small Aragorn , he will knock down our best units, i.e. uruks, zerkers, wargs.

Ah, and if you think: "Well... Boromir suxx anyways", let me commend this:

He levels insanely fast, 1 warglair, which he can take alone, and he is lvl 4, which means + 60% extra dmg for every unit around. He will survive a cripple with heal. Together with Faramir we will have a very hard time against the brothers.

-> Workshop (Treb production structure) now costs 1500 from 2000, Wall Trebuchets upgrade now take discounts from blacksmiths, like all upgrades.

-> Trebuchet's cost reduced (1000 from 1200), Trebuchet's fire-upgraded damage (350siege/300fire from 300siege/200fire) and range (480 from 420) increased.

Well, seems like we will have to survive vs. sieges like from Mordor in 1.02, furthermore Walltrebs will become uber-cheap, and they are very strong vs. Isengard, since they do much damage at once. A bunch of them can easily whip out a sieging army. We have to be aware of them. Seems like ramrush or something like that won't be as simple as he is in 1.02.

-> Damage of the upgraded Battle arrows reduced (90 vs 120, base is 40), Wall health reduced (3300 from 4000),Numenor Wall health reduced (4500 from 5000)

Good news, I'd guess. This will make sieging much easier, since 1 mine can kill the wall now nearly complete, so that balistas can do the rest much faster than before. However, lasertowers are now weaker, but still strong enough to kill units...

-> Ranger can now hold fire

Mine going through a wood with 200 cp Uruks -> ambush -> BOOOM ...

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Isengard
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-> Warchant recharge increased to 2m15s (from 2m), Vision of the Palantir now gives +15% speed to cavalry, crossbowmen
(including combos), heroes and long ranged artillery units in its central area of effect.

Less warchants until EW recharges, but Palantir is also an option now.

-> Crossbowmen have a longer pre-attack time (730ms from 500ms), per
position

Well... Hit & run will be now much harder to micro than before.

-> Pikemen slash vulnerability (123% from 100% with heavy armor) and fire
vulnerability (100%/75% from 60%/15%, unarmored/armored) increased

They suck now vs. everything except horses.

-> Wargs buffed

I don't think this will be such a elemental thing for Gondor vs. Isengard, imo.

-> Ballista AI and pathing improved,Ballista sensibly more resistant to fire and siege damage, now have a faster rate of fire (7s reload from 8s)

Good buffs vs. walltrebs/trebs in general.


EDIT: Lurtz Passive Leadership Damage boost reduced, higher range for cripple (+60%), Saruman's leadership effect reduced, now +30% Armor, 200% Experience,Fear Resistance

Well, seems like Gandalf would now get crippled always if he tries to escape , and our LS got weakened, but they are similar to Gondor's, which means, you'll need a lot of micro to use heroes effective and don't let them die, which could cost you the game.

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2.) Gameplay:
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It's our new guideline:

"A diverse army is a good army" (HERO)


Well, as you maybe have recognized, the whole matchup has completely changed:

Gondor, once the camp & lame - faction has now the ability to become a very offensive, rushing army, due to buffed brothers, early LS, and cheap abilities to siege, including cheaper upgrades than Isengard.

Isengard has to change, too:

In 1.02 they had to get their Urukpit lvl 2, then spam pikes until you have 250 CP full with them, the rest became xbows and mines.
It was boring and often lame, knights beating pikes in melee, for example, or Gandalf lurking around....

I suggest, it will be played a bit like Isengard-mirrors. A race for upgrades and mapcontrol.

However, Gondors buffs mean: If Gondor can gain and maintain the MC, or big parts of the map, Outpost or anything like that, and we don't gain enough cash to keep our Uruks upgrading, we'll have a VERY hard time to win.

We have to push for our land, once Gondor had to do this, but these times are gone. I don't think we can be too offensive, we need as much cash as possible, with rushing we let our mills/Sh's alone.

Furthermore, we're going to have to scout like hell, to be informed about their next steps.
Of course, we got several really nice buffs, too, like the Palantir, and the stronger siege and wargs.

BUT: We have an advantage, which Gondor doesn't have: SPEED! Gondor will now be like a bulldozer, powerful, but slow. Our army is more expensive, but at least more mobile. This moblity was strenghtened by Palantir buffing Wargs speed.
We can try to outmicro Gondor's forces, or avoid them. We can always retreat, they not! We can escape,until we are strong enough to beat them on the field.

Somehow, Pikespam won't help anymore, we need to mix our units clever to survive, like Isengard was supposed to do earlier on, but the pikes made that unnecessary.

We need to be aware of ambushes, too, since rangers got extremely powerful now.

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3.) What can we do do prevail?
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At first of all: SCOUT! It will be base of everything. Without knowing what you enemy does, you can not build a force which can defeat him, for example: You expect horses, go for pikes, but enemy builds rangers instead... Pikes are owned.

In my opinion, we have at least 2 different types of playing this matchup:

Type 1: "Defensive to victory"

We stay near our base, defend Gondors attempts to harass our economy, we could use wargs and xbows to creep for gaining PP and additional cash. We stay defensive, until we have enough to face Gondor's army.

Which means NOT, that we wait for our death and do nothing, but it means that we don't sacrifice units to deal dmg to the enemy.

This would probably involve pumping Uruks and xbows and/or Wargs, maybe a BO could look like this:

- Urukpit
- Uruk
- 2 Mills
- Uruk
- SH's/furnaces
- Wargpit + wargs
- Uruks
- zerkers
__________
- furnaces
- upgrades

My own rating:

+ You avoid giving him PP (as well from creeps as from your units)
+ You can decide when you go into offensive

- Risky on big maps, Gondor could simply overrun you

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Type 2: "We're carrying the White Hand into the war"

We could try play offensive, impair your enemies economy early, to gain PP and get advantages by keeping him away from your mills. Don't forget: Uruks beat Soldiers head-on-head. This would include berserkers for killing enemie's buildings fast.

My own rating:

+ You are the attacker, you put pressure on him, forcing him to act, maybe errors result from this, which would give you an advantage
+ You keep him away from creeps, which you can creep instead.

- If Gondor ignores your attacks, and rushes your mills, you are screwed
- You may sacrifice units, which pushes you back in the fight

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I want to add one last thing:

Ranger are stealthed in woods, what about using the power "Devastation" to clean key-positions from trees? You gain max. 2k cash for 1 "Devastation". This would be good while you are sieging Gondor, and he could blow up mines with his rangers.

Well, that's all I have to say at the moment, maybe Stridah has some good ideas for some BO's which could be posted here.

Furthermore I'd liketo hear feedback on this post, it should be a nice base for discussion

My suggestions at all...
Greetz,
dArCReAvEr

This post has been edited by dox| dArCrEaVeR: Nov 7 2005, 20:15 PM

Very nice analysis of Isen-Gondor and indeed a good base for further discussion.
Great job!

That doesnt mean harder micro, especially with palantir speed buff. I think it would actually make it easier. I mean, you outrun him to the point where he keeps getting his peasants just inside your shooting range and then you run away. Keep on doing this, and if he stops running after you, you can annoy him by taking his peasants out. This actually would weaken rohan's early game greatly, where his main goal is to kill your mills. If you keep harrassing his peasants like this, say with one xbow while you creep with the other, then rohan is kept reeling until their upgrades come into play.

nice analysis

Well, it's Gondor vs. Isen, and soldiers are strong armoured against piercing-dmg. You need at least 2 xbows to kill them effective/you need warchant.

Sure Palantir-vision-speed helps much for hit and run, but nothing else. I don't know about creeping, but veteran-soldiers own Uruks. Further Palantir takes the option to hardcore-rush, which would be useful vs. starting Barracks.

EDIT: Thx for your positive feedback, didn't really expect this

This post has been edited by dox| dArCrEaVeR: Nov 7 2005, 21:58 PM

IMO you discount wargs too much early vs Gondor. They counter anything Gondor has early. Archers and soldiers get trampled or forced to stay put on elven wood. They own knights now and can run them down to their death with Palantir. SH won't fall easy to knights so you will have great reaction time to counter any knight harrasement with wargs. Keep them into the later game to upgrade them and they will still be a trampling counter to Gondor archery and drive FU knights from the field with Howl and WC.
Also, Isen will be able to freely roam and scout with wargs, as you suggest scouting will be key. The only thing to avoid is fire arrows and not running straight through towerguard. A quick palantir on scouting wargs should get them out of harms way to self heal.

Wargs being viable are the greatest asset Isen gained in this new patch.

That's the other side of the medal

I know, that wargs are powerful, even in 1.02 1 bat wargs with warchant and howl > nearly 2 knights with FB and HS.
Anyhow, I would start training wargs after upgrades, like I am used on smaller maps.

I wanted to add in some warg-strats, cause I like wargs myself and it should be possible to start straight with wargs (I do it even in 1.02 vs. Rohan, together with pikes)

Sure, on big maps, Fangorn, Westfold, eastern Rohan, maybe FoI, it is possible to go for fast wargs, but on small maps I think it is pure suicide. Gondor kills your econ, goes for upgrades and there you go.
Actually I haven't seen the power of wargs ingame.

EDIT: @ Archangel: Well, I'll brake my head off for some warg-action, but tomorrow... I sleeped today only 2 hours, I'm tired as hell, and off now, good night. I'll take my eyes on it tomorrow morning

This post has been edited by dox| dArCrEaVeR: Nov 7 2005, 22:20 PM

Howl was disabled in 1.02. It gave zero bonuses. It now gives the same bonus as borimir's attack bonus so it will own hard, add 100% attack from warchant and it is greater leadership than anything Gondor has.

Oh?

Early game they're gonna give you the MC. They run over the soldiers, creep quickly. They also are mini-tanks of sorts, being cavalry that are going to survive a few hits, against the likes of Boromir and Faramir (don't forget the slight armor bonus v. heroes). +60% damage is also going to help take 'em down.

They're also the solution to the Ranger problem. How do you know if rangers and Faramir are sitting there? Well, they're holding fire, so you can just run 2-3 batts of Wargs through the trees to make sure you have a clear path to their base. Take advantage of the fact that he won't be shooting at you, because that means until he manually switches back your Wargs are safe. Plus you get half a PP

This post has been edited by Locke: Nov 8 2005, 02:17 AM

rofl no wonder wen my wargs lost to 2 rohirrim with theo with wc and howl activated i was like

Well, mine won nearly always

I have been ranting about wargs lately too.

I have read alot of good strat advice from Isen players stating that fast wargs are possible on big maps but poor on smaller maps. On smaller maps, what is the exact stopper.

1) 1st level soldier spam
2) veteran soldiers
3) Or is it TG's

IMO if you let Gondor establish outposts with statues you're gonna be in trouble. Pushing them back into their base ASAP is gonna be important IMO

EDIT: On wargs: Split into a seperate post.

ONE POINT:
Knights vs Wargs with howl & Warchant -> What are you, a moron? That's almost as dumb as fighting Rohirrim under GC. Run the hell away and come back when the WC wears off!

Plus remember that per the battletesters soldiers in block on EW > unupgraded horsies.

This post has been edited by GreenMonkey: Nov 8 2005, 08:40 AM

Palantir makes the wargs 45% faster than knights. You will be run down and cut down. When knights are retreating, the lead warg unit will cut down unlimited knights, gaining massive ranks.

Wargs start out at 100 speed, knights get 80 speed values then wargs get 15% palantir speed boost.

With exterior slaughters, interior spots are freed up for furnaces. Isen only needs 3 wargs, sell interior slaughters for furnaces (likely only 3). Exterior SH will be a boost to early warg economy.

The knights cannot run and cannot hide. The wargs will cause Isen to have more exterior espansions, therefore earlier blades and HA. When they pop one upgrade before Gondor they will even drive knights off of elven wood.

Well thats good news, we can use wargs now,
at least more than before

I'll just state a few things here:

1. If Elven Wood cancels Howl, then Knights wont be running from Wargs (someone please certify this for me )

2. Knights can't run away? This depends how far he is from the main castle...remember they have Postern Gates

3. Boromir lose to Warg Riders? I dont think so... Knockback + new attack speed PWNZ Wargs. Not to mention Horn of Gondor if ever he was creeped well. Faramir has a Horse himself as well...

4. Could be in relation to my #2 comment, since Gondor enjoys the Soldier + EW spam for early game...they will have the newly speeded up Tower Guards of Gondor, now what about Warg harassment?

Devastation is a nice idea! it counters the Ranger stealth nicely. ... the more EW he plants...the more 2k resource points he gives make em think twice about planting mutliple EW. But then the more EW he plants...the more 50% armor areas he has, for Devastation doesnt cancel out the Land itself, therefore more map control, and econ to counter the 2k resource spurt >_<

This post has been edited by Dinn: Nov 8 2005, 15:10 PM

Hmm, i havent played much since patch 1.02... (booring), but the problems i believe Gondor may have against wargs are:

*Gondor used to go fast knights, no barracks; or barracks + 1 soldier then sell barracks. If Isen Mirror this and can keep the same number of outer resource buildings, it will likely get wargs at the same time or ealier than Gondor, unless Gondor goes for base early, forcing 1-2 towers.

*Wargs > Knigthts; Wargs with howl > Knights with shields; Wargs with both howl and warchant > Knights with blades OR armor? Yes you'll have to run when hey use both, but its unlikely the Isen will use it before its close enough to melee, wich would allow them to cause damage and, with palantir, even kill a whole battalion... that without any upgrade on them!

*If wargs dont want to hunt knights they are still likely to creep a lot faster by using howl against wild wargs. Howl may be enough to scare knights away and give the wargs the creep...

*TG's are better now, but its easy to avoid them... Rangers may be good against wargs, but you need TG's too so that they dont get trampled, wich requires 2 veteram buildings...

Well, im just waiting for the patch to come out... but i do believe that early wargs will be very good against Gondor.

This post has been edited by Khe: Nov 8 2005, 15:11 PM

I like ur text very much. Very nice read

I think u should had a 2furnace strat...it will be very useful too

Gondor has the blessing of walls. Isengard doesn't. I don't see 1.02-early cav being as effective tbh, it'll take a bit too long.

Oh, and soldiers do more crush revenge now...

so wargs are pretty much going to own. until either rangers or tower guard come out? interesting, how good do u think yeoman are vs them? obviuosly midgame u will need some uruks...hmmm....